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A few things from the news that I feel the need to comment on. Quoth Dr Sacks, head of the Jewish community in the UK:

"But when you challenge Israel's right to exist then you are certainly calling into question the right of the Jewish people to exist collectively"

Um, no. When you challenge Israel's right to exist, what you are challenging, to my mind, is the right of a non-native people to live on land that is not theirs, with the support of countries who are corruptly helping them because they have financial interests, in a situation that breeds intolerance among all sides.

"What's happening now is the direct equivalent of what America is doing in Afghanistan, if you support the latter, then you have to understand the former. They are the same policy"

As I recall, I was against that too. Just because your daddy does it, doesn't mean you can. Grow up as a nation and start doing things because they're right, not because you can get away with it because everyone else seems to be doing it. PS, killing people because they are suicide bombers is one thing. Killing people indiscriminately in a town that allegedly harbours a lot of suicide bombers is quite different. The truth will come out, and heads will roll.

He condemned the British media for its "unfair treatment" of the issue and for not portraying the Israeli suffering.

We've had nothing but Israeli suffering on the news for the last few years. It's always "Palestinian suicide attacks on Israelis". When the Palestinians were the main aggressors, we heard about it. Right now, however, the Israelis are in the wrong, and so we're hearing about that instead. Get a grip and quit whining, the whole "you're being anti-semitic" thing because people disagree with you is bullshit, it's a throwback to the collective guilt of the allies for allowing the holocaust to happen, and it won't work. You can't make people ignore what you're doing by telling them that if they criticize you, they're aligning themselves with the Nazis, which is what it amounts to.

Since 1994 US presidents have signed a waiver every six months that allows the Palestine Liberation Organisation to lobby and finance itself in Washington. But the annual $75m in aid will now be conditional on Mr Arafat halting attacks on Israelis

Typical US. Throwing their economic weight around, trying to blackmail people into doing what they want. Was there a threat to suspend selling weapons to Israel? I know the EU made one, but did the US make one? I didn't hear about it if they did......

Humanity plain sucks

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Actually, Israel used to belong to the Jews, and not the Palestinians. Hence, they are called the Israelis, and they live in Israel. And it's in all the old testament (you know, the Jewish part of the bible) about how they lived there and stuff. They got kicked out for some reason. I can't remember why. I think it was the second world war and Hitler killing them or something. And then we put them back in Israel after the war.

Not that I condone what they're doing. The whole thing makes me sick. Just getting facts straight is good for you.

-don't think 'cause you can't see me that i'm not watching

Actually, Israel used to belong to the Jews

Not to my recollection. My understanding was that it was Egypt that the Jews left, led by Moses, and travelled to what is now known as Israel, which was their Holy Land that they were promised by God. But it's been a few years since I read Exodus, so I'm not sure - I could be wrong...

However, it does give them some right to the land, owing to how they've lived there for thousands of years, which is more than most "invaders" can claim - the English are descended from the Anglo Saxons, who didn't come to this island until 1500 years ago or so - before then, it was Romans and Celts. The Americans only settled in their lands in the last four hundred years or so, and the Australians even less recently. So the Jews have more claim to Israel than most nations - the difference being, their claim is being actively disputed by a power large enough to challenge them.

(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand
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Y'know, Palestine WAS offered a roughly 50/50 split after World War II. They refused. And when you look at it objectively (and politically) it's really pretty obvious that giving 22% of the territory back to the Palestinians won't settle matters. It won't work for the same reason appeasement strategies didn't work with Hitler (the then leaders of the UK and France let him have the Rhineland because he SWORE it was all he wanted). When a nation (ANY nation) sees that it can get territory simply by claiming it won't ask for any more afterwards, it will do it again, and again, and again, as many times as it will work.

Another reason you can't settle the issue by giving Palestinians that territory is Jerusalem. To three religions, Jerusalem is an amazingly holy city. Important artifacts and structures for Judaism, Islam and Christianity all sit there, and no one is willing to just forget them. Christianity (in the US) is okay with the current situation because the Jewish establishment is, at the moment, a friend of theirs. The only way to resolve the matter is either an AMAZINGLY intricate division of Jerusalem and the rest of Israel/Palestine (which would lead to all sorts of lovely little border disputes), some kind of shared government, a declaration of the place as a no-man's land, or a mass conversion of one third of the world to atheism.

Oh, and by the way, Bush's actions shouldn't really reflect on the US at large. Less than half of us voted for him- er, less than half of the less than half that voted, that is.

And to the economic weight comment . . . human nature. Pretty much any nation that had the economic weight would use it- and it is, after all, still preferable to military weight. Most nations use their might- you yourself referred to a threat of trade blockage by the EU. Hmmm . . . wonder if a world government would solve all these problems. Or maybe a more decentralized government . . . hehe. Abolish all nations and establish city-states. That's it. No more gigantic military engagements.

Anyway, if you've read this far, thanks for letting me add my 2 cents to the issue. Probably closer to 5 cents by now, I suppose . . .

James, here's a little history for you. No, actually, this is for all who have any doubt that the land belongs to Israel. It's all facts by the way that you can get from any history book. I spent a few hours doing some research with my books, just for you.

Ok, let's start with the Biblical times:
· 1250 BC: Israelites began to conquer and settle the land of Canaan on the eastern Mediterranean coast.
· 961-922 BC: Reign of King Solomon and construction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Solomon's reign was followed by the division of the land into two kingdoms.
· 586 BC: The southern kingdom, Judah, was conquered by the Babylonians, who drove its people, the Jews, into exile and destroyed Solomon's Temple. After 70 years the Jews began to return and Jerusalem and the temple were gradually rebuilt.
Classical period
· 333 BC: Alexander the Great's conquest brought the area under Greek rule.
· 165 BC: A revolt in Judea established the last independent Jewish state of ancient times.
· 63 BC: The Jewish state, Judea, was incorporated into the Roman province of Palestine
· 70 AD: A revolt against Roman rule was put down by the Emperor Titus and the Second Temple was destroyed. This marks the beginning of the Jewish Diaspora, or dispersion.
· 118-138 AD: During the Roman Emperor Hadrian's rule, Jews were initially allowed to return to Jerusalem, but - after another Jewish revolt in 133 - the city was completely destroyed and its people banished and sold into slavery.
· 638 AD: Conquest by Arab Muslims ended Byzantine rule (the successor to Roman rule in the East). The second caliph of Islam, Omar, built a mosque at the site of what is now the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem in the early years of the 8th Century. Apart from the age of the Crusaders (1099-1187), the region remained under Muslim rule until the fall of the Ottoman Empire in the 20th Century.

As you can see Israelite Jews were the first in the region..and were exiled numerous times. Historically, the land is and has been theirs. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT

OK, moving ahead to this century:
· A few Zionist immigrants had already started arriving in the area before 1897. By 1903 there were some 25,000 of them, mostly from Eastern Europe. They lived alongside about half a million Arab residents in what was then part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire which conquered vast lands in the region. (a little extra fact, these Ottomans conquered my country Georgia too at one point...those bastards >:(
· A second wave of about 40,000 immigrants arrived in the region between 1904 and 1914.
· Then in 1917, the British Foreign Minister Arthur Balfour committed Britain to work towards “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”, in a letter to leading Zionist Lord Rothschild. It became known as the Balfour Declaration.
· Britain, which had ruled Palestine since 1920, handed over responsibility for solving the Zionist-Arab problem to the UN in 1947.
· The UN set up a special committee which recommended splitting the territory into separate Jewish and Palestinian states. Palestinian representatives, known as the Arab Higher Committee, rejected the proposal; their counterparts in the Jewish Agency accepted it.
· The partition plan gave 56.47% of Palestine to the Jewish state and 43.53% to the Arab state, with an international enclave around Jerusalem. On 29 November 1947, 33 countries of the UN General Assembly voted for partition, 13 voted against and 10 abstained. The plan, which was rejected by the Palestinians, was never implemented.
do you see??/ they fricking didn’t want almost half of the land!!!!

And finally,
· The State of Israel, the first Jewish state for nearly 2,000 years, was proclaimed at 1600 on 14 May 1948 in Tel Aviv.

Ya probably know the post-1948 history!

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PS, killing people because they are suicide bombers is one thing. Killing people indiscriminately in a town that allegedly harbours a lot of suicide bombers is quite different.
If my mom or my brother was killed by one of the suicide bombers, I would want to kill them all....
Humanity plain sucks
doesn't it?

Even the people who aren't suicide bombers? Well, it's lucky that (to my knowledge) none of your family has been killed by them, because the prospect of it setting you off on a random indiscriminate rampage is quite scary.

<applauds> i couldn't agree more. and i was raised jewish, too. </applauds>

...that is, i agree with Jamie's original commentary.

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Re: _josh Expand
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Uhm, it was on the the news. I really dont have the time to check news listings right now, but I will when I have some time.

Lies and Disinformation as a Palestinian Weapon
April 10, 2002

The Palestinian use of lies and disinformation has been well known for
many years but, in recent days it has reached new heights, the likes of
which we have not seen before. The false reports published in the
Palestinian media, or from time to time by their spokespeople in the
international media, have a double purpose: on the one hand, to delegitimize
Israel and, on the other hand, to distract world attention from the
Palestinian Authority's deep involvement in terrorism.

The Palestinian collection of lies is particularly disturbing in light
of the well-known phenomenon that when a lie is repeated often enough
it becomes the truth, even if it has no basis. Even more disturbing is
the willingness of the international media to serve as the instrument
for publicizing the Palestinian claims, without checking their veracity
and knowing that in many cases they are without foundation. The denials,
if they are published later, receive much less publicity; by then, the
damage has been done.

Below are a few examples of fabrications disseminated by the

1. One of the most popular themes, arising from the restrictions placed
on Arafat, is the fear for the life of the president. On March 31,
Yasser Abed Rabo said, in an interview to the Al Jazeera television
station, that a warning was received that the IDF would enter the compound in
Ramallah, and that this step was planned by Sharon with the intent to
kill Yasser Arafat. The same day, Hassan Asfor said to BBC radio that
the IDF had broken into Arafat's offices and that the situation was
dangerous, "on the brink of disaster". Also on the same day, Saeb Erekat
said on Egyptian television that he was unable to make contact with Arafat
and that he feared for his life. Erekat repeated this in an interview
he gave to CNN on April 6.

These fears were all proven to be unfounded.

2. Jibril Rajoub (March 30, on MAHAD TV, a local television station in
Ramallah) accused Israel of carrying out a "massacre," executing 30
Palestinians in Ramallah. The announcement was also broadcast on Al
Jazeera and other stations.

The reality, of course, is different: in battles which took place on
that day in Ramallah, 9 Palestinians were killed - all of them armed.

3. Palestinian television reported on April 2, on the basis of an
official announcement by the Palestinian leadership, that a priest named
Jacques Amathis had been killed and dozens of monks wounded in an IDF
action in Bethlehem. The announcement was published prominently in the
Italian and French media and prompted a storm of protest.

The following day the 'late" priest was interviewed by the MINSA agency
and confirmed that he and the monks in the monastery were safe and

4. Arafat, in an interview to Al Jazeera television on April 3, claimed
that Israel had "burned the mosque" opposite Santa Maria Church in
Bethlehem and "destroyed many churches and mosques." He called upon the
Christian and Muslim world to take action. MAHAD TV reported that a fire
had broken out in the Omar el-Hatib Mosque in Bethlehem and that the IDF
was preventing the fire brigade from reaching the site to extinguish
the flames.

None of these charges has any factual basis.

5. The WAFA (Palestinian News Agency) Internet site reported on April 2
that the IDF had shelled the new mosque in Tulkarm after the muezzin
called people to noon prayers.

In fact, no such incident took place.

6. Jibril Rajoub claimed, in an interview with Syrian television
network ANN on March 30, that the only people in the compound of the
Preventive Security Services in Betouniya were people working for the service,
women and civilians, and that there were no wanted terrorists there.

The truth, of course, is somewhat different. On April 2, a number of
wanted terrorists were captured in the building, including senior members
of Hamas involved in many terrorist activities.

7. On the WAFA Internet site, it was reported on April 2 by the
Palestinian Minister of Health, Riyad Al Zanoun, that the IDF had taken
control of five Palestinian ambulances in Ramallah, forced their teams to
strip, and taken them to an unknown site, in order to prevent them from
treating the wounded.

In reality, ever since an explosive belt was discovered in a
Palestinian ambulance underneath a stretcher on which a small child was lying
(end of March, at the A-Ram check post), the IDF has been forced to act
with extreme caution.

A similar charge, incidentally, was made on April 5 by Al Kuds
newspaper, which reported that a Red Crescent ambulance was seized in El Bireh,
and that IDF soldiers attacked its driver and the paramedics traveling
with him.

No such incident has ever taken place.

8. In an interview with Abu Dhabi television on March 29, Arafat
claimed that "there was also that incident in Hebron, that insolent and
criminal incident; they even attacked and killed in the Hebron area three
members of the international force: two from Turkey and one of the nurses
from Switzerland."

In fact, in the incident in question, one of the Turkish members of the
force was rescued, and he said, in a radio interview, that the attack
was carried out by an uniformed Palestinian.

9. The Al Kuds newspaper reported on April 4 that the IDF refused to
permit a patient to be transferred by ambulance from the clinic in the
Greek Orthodox Monastery in Beit Sahour to hospital in Beit Jala.

In fact, no such incident took place.

10. The WAFA agency reported on April 5 that the IDF shelled the Um
Nasser neighborhood, the Al Udeh towers and the residential areas near the
Salah a Din road in the northern Gaza Strip.

The reality was somewhat different - the mortar shells were fired by
the Palestinians themselves, but landed in their own territory.

11. The Al Kuds newspaper reported on April 5 that the prisoners in
Ofer Camp, near Givat Ze'ev, undergo torture, including breaking their

This allegation too has no basis.

12. The WAFA news agency reported on April 6 that a person named Ali
Mustafa Abu Razek, aged 30, was shot and killed by the IDF close to the
Sufa Crossing.

In fact, Abu Razek was a terrorist who was trying to place an explosive
device and was blown up together with the device.

13. At the beginning of the events, IDF soldiers were accused of
broadcasting pornographic films on Al Watan television in Ramallah.

This claim was thoroughly investigated by the IDF and found to be

14. On April 5 Nabil Sha'ath claimed in the Saudi 'Okaz' that Israel
had forged the document seized from Arafat's office in Ramallah
indicating that the Palestinian Authority was funding the Al Aksa Martyrs

The document is of course authentic, and in the meantime other
documents have been found indicating the involvement of the Palestinian
Authority and of Arafat in terrorism and in its funding.

These are just a few examples of the uncontrolled Palestinian
disinformation campaign being waged also in the leading world media networks.
This campaign creates a picture of Israel as a cruel and inhumane
country, which damages holy sites, persecutes first aid agencies in
contravention of the Geneva Convention and so on. The reality is different. The
ones who are harming innocent civilians are the Palestinians terrorists.
The ones who are desecrating holy sites, and not for the first time,
are the Palestinians. The ones who are violating the Geneva Convention
and using ambulances and hospitals for other than their real purpose -
are the Palestinians.

A propos the use of ambulances, there is a famous picture from
Bethlehem showing a tank moving aside two ambulances blocking its path. For
some reason, no one gave a thought to this use of these ambulances as a
barricade - not one of the natural and protected uses of ambulances.

We are publishing these things because we suspect that the Palestinians
will claim that a massacre took place in the Jenin refugee camp, in
view of the heavy losses that they sustained in the bloody battles that
were fought there. The Palestinians are preparing the ground for such a
claim. On April 6, they published an urgent call to the international
community to intervene immediately in order to save the lives of the
residents of the refugee camp, because the camp was under merciless attack
and "there are dozens of dead and injured, a situation which could
reach the scale of a new Sabra and Shatilla massacre." They do not allow
bodies to be evacuated from the site so as to intensify the effect, and
the only thing left for us to do is to be prepared and to reject any
attempt to draw such a comparison. This is particularly important against
the background of the item by Al Jazeera reporter Walid Alamari, who
announced on April 8 that, according to information coming from the Jenin
refugee camp, all the resistors and fighters are wearing explosive
belts. If this is the case, then we are talking about a bloody battle and
not a massacre. But the associations that the Palestinians are trying to
arouse are stronger than the facts.

By the way the UN so called investigation was cancelled since they could not found ANY proof of mistreatment other than a bloody battle that was fought on both sides!

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