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2012
unknownj
Heh, just finished my latest song. Drum machines are fun, I can do some fucked up shit on them, and this song is a great example of that. I got a standard drum 8-beat-per-bar rhythm on my keyboard, at a tempo of 90bpm, then upped the tempo by 1bpm every four beats. By the end it was on 140bpm. I then played along to that, making up chords as I went along. I ended up with something in C#, F#, A#m and G# (I was just playing some normal C/F/G stuff with a capo on the first fret, that's all). Keeping in time with the drums was difficult, since they were changing ALL the time...

Then over that, I recorded a very simple arpeggio type lead, nothing taxing, but it adds depth to the finished product. And then, I improvised random lyrics over it. I recorded it with those lyrics, then wrote them down and sang them over it again, so that I could time them a little better. But I made them up as I went along, which is... uh... interesting. The finished product? Well, I think it's shite, but it's interesting, at the very least. But no, you can't download it... ;o)

In other music-related news, I have my tickets to Mansun here. I've now got Mansun, Tool and Saves the Day tickets here, it's so good. I used to go to like one gig every four months, and then I've been to White Rain, Rachel Stamp, AntiProduct, Tool, Saves the Day, and Mansun in the space of three weeks :o)

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8-beat-per-bar rhythm

So you started with 8 quavers? 8/4 or 4/8 or even 8/9? However there is no correlation whatsoever between bpm and beats per bar unless you specify whether you are using comnpound or triple time! 8 beats per bar could mean anything.

I will have to make an inference then (hmmm similar to another thread I've been involved with today) and assume you are using compound time and that you actually mean 8/4 timing!

Perhaps you could be more specific and offer a clearer explanation next time? ;0)

P.S. You were expecting this response from me weren't you?

8 beats per bar could mean anything

I know, which is why I then specified the bpm, which tells you therefore how long each bar is. So from that, you can infer that it started at 90bpm, which is 1.5 beats per second, which gives us a bar length of just under six seconds, and goes up to 140bpm, which means it ends with 2.3 beats per second, which means the bars ended at about 3.5 seconds in length.

That should tell you everything you need to know...

1.5 beats per second, which gives us a bar length of just under six seconds

Hmmm you're obviously not fully familiar with musical timings or tempo (or the difference). This could be difficult to explain.

1.5 beats per second is just not a muscial timing but to extrapolate that (for amusement) if you are saying you have a 6 second bar then thats 4 beats per bar - and NOT 8 as you originally suggest. 6 seconds divided by 1.5 beats equates to 4 beats per bar.

If that is the case then I can thankfully fall back on musical timings. It would mean you have 8/4 which is compound time quavers in a 4 beat bar. This however has nothing to do with how fast you play!

The correlation between beats per minute and musical timings is simply not possible though. You could play at 240 bpm and the timing would still be the same (which in this case would be 4 beats per bar).

I would suggest you grab a basic music theory book and read up on the difference between tempo and timings!

This should tell you all you need to learn! ;0)


1.5 beats per second is just not a muscial timing but to extrapolate that (for amusement) if you are saying you have a 6 second bar then thats 4 beats per bar - and NOT 8 as you originally suggest. 6 seconds divided by 1.5 beats equates to 4 beats per bar.No. 1.5 beats PER second. In one second, 1.5 beats occur. In two seconds, 3 beats occur. In 6 seconds, 9 beats occur. If you're going to play the pedant at me, don't do so with Maths ;o)

My original point, in case you weren't listening, is that I have a bar. In this bar, I play two chords. The length of time that this bar takes varies throughout the song - at the beginning, the tempo is slow, the bar takes longer, the chords last longer. At the end of the song, the tempo has been significantly increased, the bar length is shorter (in terms of seconds). That's all I was saying ;oP

NB: i was bored enough to write all this, and i have to spread it over 2 comments coz its too long...

-

i have to say, i don't know what the penis is going on!
well no, ok, i think i understood jamie...
i read jamie's post, and i assumed that saying he used a "standard drum 8-beat-per-bar rhythm", i assumed he meant what his keyboard or whatever referred to as '8beat' or something. Now this is dodgy, becuase the beat usually described as 8beat or whatever, is to all people a plain old 4/4 beat. there are 4 BEATS in the bar, no-one in their right mind would count along with 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8! now, the description 8beat seems to refer to the fact that it is driven by quavers, the hi-hat (or whatever) is riding with quavers. Just as so called '16beat' is a 4/4 beat, with the hats playing semiquavers.

so yeah, i actually understood jamie i'm fairly sure.
i had an idea someone might get confused, because of the ambiguity this naturally produces.

however, Woz, i don't know *what* you're on about...

may i just ask a question. you suggested jamie go out and get some music theory books. may i ask what in the way of music theory you've done? and how long ago any of this was? are you, or did you by any chance learn your theory off a guitarist?! ;)

- "However there is no correlation whatsoever between bpm and beats per bar...". i didn't understand this, jamie never claimed there was, did he?

and frankly, your grasp of time signatures appears, er, bizarre.

- "8/4 or 4/8 or even 8/9?". please explain this to me. 8/4, rare but feasable. 4/8 slightly less rare. 8/9?! what on io is 8/9?!

- "...assume you are using compound time and that you actually mean 8/4 timing!". er. i repeat, WHAT?!

ah. ok. i think i've spotted a problem.
i just noticed you say "..if you're using compound or triple time". terminology problem i think. you don't have 'compound or triple' time. you have:
simple or compound time.
duple or triple time.
i realise now that what you appear to mean by 'compound' time is probably what everyone else would call simple time.
simple time means that each beat is subdivided into multiples of 2, ie, 2 quavers to a beat (in 4/4), 4 semiquavers etc. compound time means that the beats are sibdivided by multiples of 3, for example, each beat will be made up of 3 quavers, or 6 semiquavers etc. i think compound time is what you mean when you say 'triple'.
triple time means that there are 3 beats in the bar.

right.

and i refer back to your "8/4 or 4/8 or even 8/9?" malarky.
if you could describe to me what these 'time signatures' each stand for, that would help, at the moment, i can't see your logic.


.......

...

now i'm going to just try to describe how time signatures work.... :s (i'm assuming this 8/4 stuff is meant to represent what would on a score be written as an 8 above a 4, and not some crazy time signature thing i dont know about!). i'm not doing this because i'm trying to point out all your mistakes, but becuase if you don't actually understand, you ought to (especially if you're going to go around quizzing people!), and i'm sure some people might want to know, like perhaps jamie who seems like he might want to learn.

ok. the first number refers to the number of, er, 'beats' in the bar. Argh, we're back here to the ambiguity. but its not my fault, its hundreds of years of music!
right. i'll just go on...
the top number means the number of 'beats' in the bar, the bottom number decribes the length of said beats. 2=minims. 4=crotchets. 8=quavers.
for example:
4/4 - 4 crotchet beats in a bar. while the beat on the keyboards is described as 8beat, it is still for all intents and purposes in 4/4.
2/4 - 2 crotchet beats in a bar.
etc.
4/8 would be 4 quaver beats in a bar.

thus, 8/4 is of course 8 crotchet beats in a bar (pretty rare). not, as you seem to think, "compound time quavers in a 4 beat bar".
now, if we were to see that quote on its own, out of context...
"compound time quavers in a 4 beat bar"
compound time means that there are 3 quavers to each beat, therefore if it is 4 beats, this time signature is 12/8. which literally means '12 quavers per bar', and they will be felt as four groups of three, 3+3+3+3=12!
this can be described as a sort of 'triplet feel 4/4'.
(1 and a 2 and a 3 and a 4 and a 1 and a 2 and a 3 and a 4...)

the most common x/8 time sigs are 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 ish i guess.
6/8 - 2 BEATS, each made up of 3 quavers.
9/8 - 3 BEATS, each made up of 3 quavers.
12/8 - 4 beats, each made up of 3 quavers.
COMPOUND time.
now, this is kind of classically orientated. if for example, if my ex drum teacher would have said to me 'play a beat in 9/8', he would most likely not have wanted me to play something that implied an easy 3+3+3. since in todays world of weird time signatures and prog rock and stuff, 9/8 will more often be subdivided differently, so the drummer might phrase it 2+2+2+3, rather than the normal classical 3+3+3.
but odd time signatures is NOT something i want to get into here! and i'm just going on now. ignore the last paragraph!

sorry jamie if i've confused you further. feel free to ask for a better explanation!

all this talk of jamie confusing timings and tempos, i've no idea where that came from. all he said was that he had a beat, and he sped it up every 4 beats!

ok. sorry bout that, i tried to describe everything simply, but fairly well...

and i'm sure some people might want to know, like perhaps jamie who seems like he might want to learn.

Yes indeed, the last time I saw a time signature was on the sheet music I used to play my recorder to when I was about 9. And I'm not sure I entirely got it back then, so... ;o)

sorry jamie if i've confused you further. feel free to ask for a better explanation!

No, not at all, you did a good job of explaining it. It seems simple enough, although I have to sidestep a lot of the music and just take it into maths... I finally see exactly why it is all my teachers kept telling us that there's a connection between maths and music. One quick question, using an example from what you said, which'll just help my understanding a bit better:

so the drummer might phrase it 2+2+2+3

Would that therefore (in my awful representation) look something like

XX--XX--XX--XXX-

Having never really done anything on beats, I just have to presume that you're constructing these 3-quaver-to-a-beat type things within a beat with the length of a minim, where there are rests wherever there aren't quavers. So to speak. Uh, I'm going to stop talking now, I'm just confusing everything and not using the right terminology at all :o)

*goes back to a nice sheet of guitar tab*

Having read what you (Richard) said about Time Signatures again, I've come to the conclusion that what I just wrote is utter crap... :o)

Ah, got it... Perhaps...

I got my keyboard to give me a 6/8 beat, so I get what that is. And 12/8 seems fairly straightforward too. 9/8 would be kinda waltz-like would it then?

My original mistake was to think that you meant X quavers plus some rests too, which would be kinda silly because those would count. Like I said, I was 9 when I last did anything really sheet-music-like, so I'm not so good with it. Thankfully, my legs were handy, so I started drumming on them for a minute, and came up with something like

L R L R L R R R R

So three repetitions of Left then Right, followed by three beats on the right, repeated. And I can say "1 2 3" along to it and that fits. So would I be right in thinking that that's what you mean by 2-2-2-3?

yep, 9/8 would be a kinda waltz thang.
glad you saw the error of your ways regarding the rests and stuff!

as far as the 2+2+2+3 malarky goes, tis hard to tell exactly ywhat you mean, but the best way i can think of clarifying what i mean, is using a constant load of quavers (x) with accents on what you 'feel' (the first of each of the groups)

XxXxXxXxx
121212123

and the drums beat bight be something like this, to give a simple sort of rock 9/8 (best though of as a normal bar of 4/4 with an extra quaver shoved on the end)...


hi hat-|XxXxXxXxx|XxXxXxXxx|
snare--|--o---o--|--o---o--|
bass---|o---o---o|o---o---o|


hey, i could even make a load of MIDI files of examples of drum beats in different time sigs!
i could include some good dream theater beats! :)
heh heh

This post has actually helped me out quite a bit. I always sort of knew the basic premise of what i was playing, but reading this has, in some wierd way, helped me explain it to myself better!?! Cheers!

OH! Guitarists have crap theory knowledge do they? Well, you're not wrong, Kurt Cobain hurt us all bad. *sigh* i wish 80's metal would come around again.........

oh come on dan, its not only kurt cobain, or should that be kurt NobRain? HAHAHHAHAHA *ahem*
its also err...
other people.
not john petrucci though! :)

p.s. yes i know, not steve vai either :P

not *only* Kurt Cobain, there were many crap 'guitarists' before and after him, but to me he just seems to be a perfect example of a guitarist who blantly knows nothing about music and should never have been let anywhere near a guitar!

"p.s. yes i know, not steve vai either :P"

Fuckin eh

Just to clarify, i don't consider myself a 'musician guitarist', in fact i'm confident that i'm much closer to the next Kurt Cobain than the next Steve Vai. But i still reserve the right to cain Cobain for being shit anyway :)

In 6 seconds, 9 beats occur. If you're going to play the pedant at me, don't do so with Maths ;o)

Maths aside if you have a six second bar (as you've already stated) and there are nine beats in that bar - it can't possibly be eight beats per bar can it! :P

The bar is of length 5.3333 (recurring) seconds - I said it was UNDER six seconds. We have 1.5 beats per second. So 8 beats.

Well you may well change the face of musical theory with that approach Jaems!

Personally I'd find sheet music much easier but each to their own! :P

it pleases me so much, that a blatant bluffer like you has been put firmly in his place place by an actual musician!

You get people like you all over the internet, i just love seeing it backfire completely

i love you richard

Erm ... riiiiight!

/me walks away slowly!

You had it coming :oP

/me looks bemused!

Eek I just had a look to see what you were all wobbling on about and saw the massssiiive post!

Hint - I only respond via email so you would have to reply to my post if you wanted me to see it!

Ermmm I dunno where to start - yes I agree mostly - just not sure about the timing part - I guess for me compound is what is being referred to here as simple time!

8/9 - yes - my bad!

Understand time signatures but thanks for the summary - almost as good as the AB Guide to Music Part One! :0)


"Eek I just had a look to see what you were all wobbling on about"

He was 'wobbling' on about music theory.....

"I guess for me compound is what is being referred to here as simple time!"

i'd re-read that AB Guide to Music Part One if i were you.

Yawn!

Yes right away!

just to comfirm my wonderings...
are you a guitarist?

Indeedy - and a keyboard player!

Just bought a loverly new Yamaha Motif 8! What fun that thing is!

have you taken keyboard lessons?
hehe keyboard lessons make me laff :)

Nyet ... not since I finished my piano lessons - which was about 16 years ago!

Does it show? ;0)

its just people who play keybaord and have keyboard lessons are funny.
16 years ago? at what age did you give up then?

keyboard lessons are funny becuase they're completely useless. from what i hear (and have seen from people who've learned to play keybaord) they just teach you to play half a piano! the whole thing is chords in left hand and melody in right. woo. great. you wouldnt be able to manage that if you'd only taken piano lessons would you?!

Well I'm 31 now so stopped when I was 15!

Yes I would agree about keyboard lessons which is why I got the Motif 8 -the 8 representing the full 8 octaves it has! :0)

ooo thats very nice inDEED! i only have a normal gay 5 octave one with totally unweighted keys, cant play it for shit!

You'd like the keys on the Yamaha! Voices are top notch too!

"/me walks away slowly!"

good idea, never know when someone's gonna come along and make you look like a retard again!

Hehehehehe!

Make the most of it - it doesn't happen often!

The song rules :)

and I am such a good influence!

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