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What a day...
Database is nearly finished. By the end of tomorrow, it should be done. As in, completely done. Which is good :o)

Everything seems to be winding me up today. I wish I was a violent person sometimes - it seems like such a simple way of letting out aggression... If I could just find a wall and hit it, or something. But no, the anger and annoyance just builds up, and builds up, and then I act like a total bastard for a day for no apparent reason. Oh well, perhaps being irritable and sarcastic for a day beats hitting walls. I don't really wish I was violent, so.... :o)

Ugh, looking at the situation in the middle east is just depressing and annoying me too. Stand by for Recent History, as told by me.

Guy destroys US buildings, causing much upset
US decides to hunt guy down
Guy is conveniently sheltered by a government that the US objects to
US sends demands to government
Government fails to comply
US takes this opportunity to destroy an anti-US institution, and blows up said government, in the name of anti-terrorism
Ariel Sharon watches news report and notices this
Israel takes this opportunity to opress an anti-Israel institution who they're bickering with, in the name of anti-terrorism.

And this entire thing is so dangerous to the rest of the world. It's funny, because everybody can see that this anti-terrorism kick is just an excuse for Israel to get its own way - funny how they didn't notice the same when the US was bombing Afghanistan, really. Palestine blows people up with suicide bombers, Israel blows people up with tanks they effectively got given by the US - they're no different, yet because Israel has western backing, and does things in a more clean way, they think they're in the right. But yeah, the situation is dangerous, because Israel is so far in the wrong here that it's just not funny, and the UN and EU sees this. However, America doesn't - Bush says he can understand Israel's point of view and sympathises with their anti-terror campaign.

Eventually, the EU or UN will step in, and stop Israel, hopefully before they commit mass genocide. And then what will the US do? By their definitions, the EU will become a system that supports terrorism, and must be destroyed. After all, oppression of the Palestinians is needed for the world to be a free and just place to live - remember?

Honestly, the amount of sucking up the world does to Israel these days is shocking. Yes, the west let the Jews get totally screwed over in World War Two, but that's no justification for letting them screw somebody else over and turning a blind eye to it. Because then we'll feel sorry for the Palestinians, and let them get away with stuff in fifty years time. Why can't we just treat countries as being a bit more equal, and lay the blame where it's due instead of basing policy on the ancient past?

Anyhow, that's my little rant for the day, let's hope I don't get even more pissed off at the situation later and start again.

Just remember - to some people a group might be "terrorists" - to others, they're "freedom fighters". The only world truly free of terrorism is a world without freedom and without choice. Occasionally, without radicals, the world can get stuck and nobody listens any more. I'm not condoning them, but I do think that a world that is too against terrorism will remove other rights in pursuit of that goal, and that that's not what we need.

Jeez, why can't everybody just have a lot more love, eh?

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while i was in israel i got invited to a palestinian wedding reception. just because we happened to be staying in the hotel.

when we got to the airport, we made sure not to mention that we'd gone to the reception. hehe. we had our stuff searched like usual and then the PRIEST we were travelling with got taken away for questioning.


I love religious and racial tolerance :o)

i tend to kick walls ::nods:: better than hitting them cus shoes absorb the force :o) plus if you bruise nobody sees it ::nods::

Even as a Jew and a supporter of Israel, I disagree with a lot of its policy, especially in recent weeks; and not just because it's wrong (although questions of wrong and right become less relevant when the nation is fighting for its survival), but because it does not solve anything. And while I definitely think that Israel is more "in the right" than the Palestinians, that's really not saying very much. But you're absolutely correct in that Bush's foreign policy on the matter has been nothing short of idiotic; at least Clinton had a clue that supporting a hard-line stance towards the Palestinians is not the way to end this.

Right now, I can think of only one thing which can resolve the situation, and it ain't pretty.

In theory, I support Israel a lot. I'm by no means anti-semitic - I've had girlfriends and really good friends who were Jewish (just wanted to establish that because the views above are the result of me getting very angry at the actions of a nation, not a people.

That having been said, yes, your solution pretty much is the only thing that will work at this point. For several thousand years, the Jews have been treated like shit by the Palestinians, and it's vaguely understandable that now that they have western backing, they'll want to take some sort of revenge. But just because I can see their point of view, doesn't mean I condone it (an idea Bush can't grasp).

It really is quite clever of Israel though - mimick the US, and their president will be too stupid to disagree for fear of it looking like inconsistency.... :o)

Just more random ramblings there.... :o)

You know this pro-ter^H^H^Harab rhetoric is gunna get you locked up by the oppressive capitalist infidels sooner or later...

I'm sure it would if I lived in the US. Thankfully, Clinton was more liberal about this stuff, and Tony Blair is still far more Clinton-like than Bush-like (so far)

tony blair is a plain sycophant. he has claimed parliament's support for george bush's intended "new war" on iraq, and attempted to stifle all debate within parliament regarding any necessity of such military actions.

(i mean, geez. i'm sure hussein must be all the way back up to ak-47s now. it's funny how *before* the gulf war, with the powerful economy and industry iraq had then, with its technology and lack of banned trade, the best they could come up with was the simply pathetic scud missile... and now that the country is fucked bush claims iraq is a "rogue state" with potential nuclear technology? i smell a rat, bob...)

the israeli state is highly oppressive towards the palestinian peoples, that's certainly true, and certainly they are probably guilty of the worst human rights violations (and atrocities), but it's not a black and white situation. the reason that i tend towards supporting the palestinian solidarity campaigns and such is down to a number of reasons - the israeli state is guilty of greater political hypocrisy, are the only national body with the capability to actually begin positive social measures, are guilty of reducing the status of palestinians to second-class citizens, and they fucking fire shells into refugee camps, excusing it with the claim - unsubstantiated if probably true - that gunmen are sheltering within. even if they were, are *shells* the answer? must a dozen innocents die to kill one accused?

israel / palestine is a horrible situation, and the more i learn about it the harder it is to hold an opinion. but i still maintain that ariel sharon should be tried for war crimes, a more sane president elected, and measures begun to improve relations - not an easy thing to do, obviously, with the racial and religious hatred that characterises many relations between jews and arabs in the middle east. :(

Sharon does not give a fuck about Palestine being an anti-Israel institution. In fact, I think its about time to do what he's doing now. Whatever religion Palestinians believe in - noone in Israel really gives a fuck. The fact that they dont give a crap about their own lives is what is causing all this. When the number of suicide bombings and terrorist attacks is that high, its no longer just an incident...its an act of war. And a country has a right to defend itself. Yes, at times Israel is harsh...but dont tell me that they are freedom fighters, ok? Ghandi was a freedom fighter, these palestinian suicide bombers and their conspirators -- they are not fighting for any fucking freedom. And their mothers? Their mothers sell their own kids to this "fate" for a mere $20-30K. Show me a Jewish mother like that....or a jewish suicide bomber, for that matter.

There are non-Palestinian Arabs living in Israel in peace. Israel does not do them any harm. These Arabs care about their lives, their jobs, their houses and families. They live in peace with Israeli Jews and in fact, these Arabs hate Palestians, because they are tired of living in daily fear because of them.

So I say, fuck them.....these so called freedom fighters. Long Live Israel.

Show me a Jewish mother like that....or a jewish suicide bomber, for that matter.

With all due respect, the Jews don't need to become suicide bombers - they ride around in tanks and helicopter gunships that America gave them. Take those away from them, and perhaps they might behave a little more like the conventional terrorists that you see.

With all due respect back to you, Israeli's have tanks for a good reason -- to protect their country from savages. It's a terrible sickness that has overcome the Palestinians that they instill children with thoughts of becoming suicide bombers. I agree with you that innocents die due to all this - on both Pals and Israeli side....Innocent people DO NOT deserve to die. But when war has been declared by attacking civilians over and over again, it's inevitable that cowards like Pals will not give up their hatred but will hide behind innocents and get them killed in the process.

Again, suicide bombers are not freedom fighters. They are murderers. Murderers. Their main intent is NOT to commit suicide, it is to kill as many Israelis as possible. They do not target the IDF - they target innocent civilians. Therefore, they are MURDERERS. And have to be ANNIHILATED before the strike.

Unfortunately, not even Cr0matin's idea will work, in my optinion. Lets say that both sides agree and split up the holy land into Israel and Palestine. Do YOU think there won't be suicide bombers from Palestine trying to push out the Israelis further and further and further. The bottom line is these people want to eliminate ALL Israelis. Of course the terrorists also want to terrorize the US and its interests. They say they do so because of our support for Israel (although with the ever increasong amount of liberals in this country, who think as yourself, the tide is turning......that is many more Americans are being raised and taught to hate this country.

I don't think there's any shadow of a doubt in any of our minds that the suicide bombers are fanatics and murderers. The problem is that the Palestinians see them as heroes and martyrs. And not just a few thousand radicals - but the majority of the 4-some million. And they are willing to follow in the bombers' footsteps.

So, what do you propose to do with that coupla million people? "Annihiliate" them?

No, I think giving them their own state is the only option. A state with the borders sealed off, surrounded with mines, topped with barbed wire, patrolled by snipers with night-vision goggles and Predator spyplanes. That will prevent the suicide bombers from reaching Israeli civillians.

Right now Israeli army is in the same position in the West Bank and Gaza as they were in Lebanon. They are a deeply despised occupying force, and all the vigilance/technology in the world cannot help them change that perception or prevent terrorist strikes. A Palestinian state is the only solution, but it should be a state created on Israeli terms, and hermetically sealed off from Israel.

the problem is not that palestinians seem them as martyrs and not murdurers. The problem is that the rest of the world is starting to see them this way ...

Therefore, they are MURDERERS. And have to be ANNIHILATED before the strike.

Nobody deserves annihilation - killing anybody, regardless of who, is a bad thing. And from the point of view of the suicide bombers, the Israelis are murderers and deserve to be annihilated.

And perhaps, after what America has done to the world, it's a good thing that more Americans are growing up to hate it. I know I certainly hate my country and everything it's been guilty of over the years, including (but not limited to) the slave trade, the oppression of the Irish, allowing the holocaust to go unchecked, taking the wrong side in numerous smaller conflicts in the past 50 years..... The western world is a disgrace to humanity.

I absolutely disagree. The ugly cult of the suicide bomber that is being promoted by the Palestinian administration, Iraq and Iran threatens basic human decency, and its state-supported infrastructure must be dismantled, even if it means killing the terrorists. World is not perfect. Sometimes, bad people get killed to save millions of good people. It happened in WW2, and many other wars.

Ignoring these savages is exactly what has brought Israel to face the onslaught of terror, and not doing anything to those that kill innocent civilians in pursuit of their political and religious beliefs shows that these barbaric tactics pay off.

Israel is being condemned for doing the same thing every country would do in response to acts of war. This is daily onslaught...not just one instance of attacks that Israeli people suffer. Palestinians had their chance of getting their land...they didnt accept any terms that Israel would offer. That is because they dont want to accept Israel PERIOD.

Today there are 6 million Jews living in close quarters surrounded by enemies who seek nothing less than her destruction. Read April 4's NYTimes front page article "Hamas Spirits Soar," in which it is stated that Hamas, aligned with Yasir Arafat's Fatah organization in its enmity against Israel, does not want a peace agreement with Israel, its goal being the eradication of the Jewish state.
The terrorists state themselves in interviews that they want nothing less but a total destruction of a state of Israel.

EVERY country has a TOTAL right to defend and prevent its citizens' lives. Should Israel yield and withdraw from West Bank
today, more Israeli women, children and elderly will fall victims to
barbarism and hostilities of its neighbors. This has happened every time Israel has tried the so called "cease fire"

Today, there is six million Jews living in terror in Israel, and somehow the world wants them to turn the other cheek just as their ancestors have done in the Jewish ghettos. Dejavu...history repeats itself, huh?

EVERY country has a TOTAL right to defend and prevent its citizens' lives.

Perhaps, but some might argue that Israel isn't a country, and that Palestine is... The general feeling among the arab coutries is that Israel has no right to that land, and that they stole it.

As for the Jews living in terror, that's a very one-sided argument. I would say it's the Jews oppressing and slaughtering the Palestinians rather than it being the other way around. Sure, there are suicide bombers, but every time one of those people kills Israeli citizens, the Palestinians then live in terror, waiting for the (inevitable) reprisals (read: Israel bringing in its flashy tanks)

Israel is not the victim here, not overall - they have (or had, thankfully some people have seen sense) the backing from the west, a strong economy, and a lot of military hardware.

If you have any doubt that the land does not belong to Israel, please read my summary of the reasons why it does belong to Israel. (PS: I used U.S. Senator James M. Inhofe speech on “Reasons why Israel is entitled to the land they have” as a source)

1) The first reason is that Israel has the right to the land because of all of the archeological evidence. Every time there is a dig in Israel, it does nothing but support the fact that Israelis have had a presence there for 3,000 years. They have been there for a long time. The coins, the cities, the pottery, the culture--there are other people, groups that are there, but there is no mistaking the fact that Israelis have been present in that land for 3,000 years.

It predates any claims that other peoples in the regions may have. The ancient Philistines are extinct. Many other ancient peoples are extinct. They do not have the unbroken line to this date that the Israelis have. The first Israelis are in fact descended from the original Israelites. The first proof, then, is the archeology.

2) The second proof of Israel's right to the land is the historic right. History supports it totally and completely. We know there has been an Israel up until the time of the Roman Empire. The Romans conquered the land. Israel had no homeland, although Jews were allowed to live there. They were driven from the land in two dispersions: One was in 70 A.D. and the other was in 135 A.D. But there was always a Jewish presence in the land.

During WW1, The British at that time said they were going to give the Jewish people a homeland. That is all a part of history. It is all written down in history. They were gratified that the Jewish people, the bankers, came through and helped finance the war. The homeland that Britain said it would set aside consisted of all of what is now Israel and all of what was then the nation of Jordan—the whole thing. That was what Britain promised to give the Jews in 1917.

Where was this great Palestinian nation? It did not exist. It was not there. Palestinians were not there. Palestine was a region named by the Romans, but at that time it was under the control of Turkey, and there was no large mass of people there because the land would not support them.

That was 1913. In short, under the Turks the land suffered from neglect and low population. That is a historic fact. Both Jews and Arabs populated the nation because the land came to prosper when Jews came back and began to reclaim it. Historically, they began to reclaim it.

Did you know that Saudi Arabia was not created until 1913, Lebanon until 1920? Iraq did not exist as a nation until 1932, Syria until 1941; the borders of Jordan were established in 1946 and Kuwait in 1961. Any of these nations that would say Israel is only a recent arrival would have to deny their own rights as recent arrivals as well. They did not exist as countries. They were all under the control of the Turks.Historically, Israel gained its independence in 1948.

3) The third reason that land belongs to Israel is the practical value of the Israelis being there. Israel today is a modern marvel of agriculture. Israel is able to bring more food out of a desert environment than any other country in the world. The Arab nations ought to make Israel their friend and import technology from Israel that would allow all the Middle East, not just Israel, to become an exporter of food. Israel has unarguable success in its agriculture.

(continuation follows in another comment!)

4) The fourth reason Israel has the right to the land is on the grounds of humanitarian concern. 6 million Jews were slaughtered in Europe in World War II. The persecution against the Jews had been very strong in Russia since the advent of communism. It was against them even before then under the Czars. These people have a right to their homeland. If they don’t have Israel land as homeland, then where? What other nation on Earth is going to cede territory, is going to give up land?

5) The fifth reason Israel ought to have their land is that she is a strategic ally to democratic nations. Whether we realize it or not, Israel is a detriment, an impediment, to certain groups hostile to democracies and hostile to what we believe in, hostile to that which makes us the greatest nation in the history of the world. They have kept them from taking complete control of the Middle East. If it were not for Israel, they would overrun the region. They are our strategic ally.

And for the U.S. especially, it is good to know we have a friend in the Middle East on whom we can count. They vote with us in the United Nations more than England, more than Canada, more than France, more than Germany--more than any other country in the world.

6) The sixth reason is that Israel is a roadblock to terrorism. Since its independence in 1948, Israel has fought four wars: The war in 1948 and 1949--that was the war for independence--the war in 1956, the Sinai campaign; the Six-Day War in 1967; and in 1973, the Yom Kippur War, the holiest day of the year, and that was with Egypt and Syria.

In all four cases, Israel was attacked. They were not the aggressor. Some people may argue that this was not true because they went in first in 1956, but they knew at that time that Egypt was building a huge military to become the aggressor. Israel, in fact, was not the aggressor and has not been the aggressor in any of the four wars.

Also, they won all four wars against impossible odds. They are great warriors. They consider a level playing field being outnumbered 2 to 1. There were 39 Scud missiles that landed on Israeli soil during the gulf war. U.S. President has asked Israel not to respond. In order to have the Arab nations on board, we asked Israel not to participate in the war. They showed tremendous restraint and did not. Now we have asked them to stand back and not do anything over these last several attacks.

We have criticized them. We have criticized them in our media. Local people in television and radio often criticize Israel, not knowing the true facts. We need to be informed. If Israel were driven into the sea tomorrow, if every Jew in the Middle East were killed, terrorism would not end. You know that in your heart. Terrorism would continue.

(continuation follows in another comment!)

Eight years ago on the lawn of the White House, Yitzhak Rabin shook hands with PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat. It was a historic occasion. At that time, the official policy of the Government of Israel began, ``Let us appease the terrorists. Let us begin to trade the land for peace.'' This process continued unabated up until last year.

At Camp David, in the summer of 2000, then Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Barak offered the most generous concessions to Yasser Arafat that had ever been laid on the table. He offered him more than 90 percent of all the West Bank territory, sovereign control of it. There were some parts he did not want to offer, but in exchange for that he said he would give up land in Israel proper that the PLO had not even asked for.

And he also did the unthinkable. He even spoke of dividing Jerusalem and allowing the Palestinians to have their capital there in the East. Yasser Arafat stormed out of the meeting. Why did he storm out of the meeting? Everything he had said he wanted was offered there. It was put into his hands. Why did he storm out of the meeting?

A couple of months later, there began to be riots, terrorism. The riots began when now Prime Minister Ariel Sharon went to the Temple Mount. And this was used as the thing that lit the fire and that caused the explosion.

Did you know that Sharon did not go unannounced and that he contacted the Islamic authorities before he went and secured their permission and had permission to be there? It was no surprise.

The response was very carefully calculated. They knew the world would not pay attention to the details.

They would portray this in the Arab world as an attack upon the holy mosque. They would portray it as an attack upon that mosque and use it as an excuse to riot. Over the last 8 years, during this time of the peace process, when the Israel actually tried to give up land for peace because they are tired of fighting, there has been increased terror.

In fact, it has been greater in the last 8 years than any other time in Israel's history. Showing restraint and giving in has not produced any kind of peace. It is so much so that today the leftist peace movement in Israel does not exist because the people feel they were deceived.

Israel did offer a hand of peace, and it was not taken. That is why the politics of Israel have changed drastically over the past 12 months. The Israelis have come to see that, ``No matter what we do, these people do not want to deal with us. They want to destroy us.'' That is why even yet today the stationery of the PLO still has upon it the map of the entire state of Israel, not just the tiny little part they call the West Bank that they want. They want it all.

We have to get out of this mind set that somehow you can buy peace in the Middle East by giving little plots of land. It has not worked before when it has been offered.

These seven reasons show why Israel is entitled to that land.

-------From the speech by U.S. Senator James M. Inhofe (R - Oklahoma)

Hi, haven't visited in a while.

Just wanted to say hi, and tell you my new website URL

laters. TTYL

Re: Hi, haven't visited in a while.

Um, how to say this.... Piss off.

Nothing to do with me...but if you're up for a debate then the bit i have a problem with is in your carefully considered history section you say "the government take this opportunity to destroy an anti-US institution"...since when does the anti US bit become relevant...are u sure it wasn't more to do with the fact they were sheltering and helping Bin Laden and if this wasn't stopped then there would have been more attacks? Please explain...and also you seem anti US intervention (unless i'm mistaken), so what was your solution?

The Taliban didn't like the US. America doesn't like it when other countries won't play the game their way - chances are, whatever government is going to be installed in place of the Taliban, it'll have links with the US, and probably at some point allow America to build great big slave-labour factories so that American kids can wear nice clothes and shoes....

And I'm not against intervention - I am, however, against the indiscriminate murder of starving civilians with cluster bombs...

And my third and final point is that the US seems to think that the way to prevent attacks is to imprison/kill anybody who is capable of making attacks. Their half-hearted attempt to negotiate with the government of Afghanistan isn't going to fool anybody - they're much more willing to throw their weight around than listen to the reasons why people want to attack them.

I'm not very good at expressing arguments, yet i totally disagree with your point, so if this comes out slightly wrong, then it's nothing to do with my crap argument ok, more to do with my inability to coherently write can't reason with ppl like Al'Qaeida...yes, US foreign policy often leaves a lot to be desired, but in this case, they had no alternative than to remove the Taliban, as they were supporting terrorists killing innocent civillians.....i don't even think Al'Qaieda were wanting a dialogue with the US, about why they attacked them...they're just in truth out of control religious fundamentalist terrorists who have no place on this planet....sorry if that offends ppl, but it's the way i see things ... to be truth i'd prefer to see america throw their weight around to ppl like than that, rather than listening to them..because they're fanatics with a distorted view of the world!

"they were supporting terrorists killing innocent civilians"

Let's not forget that a lot of Al Qieda's funding came from the US and other countries, and that the Taliban was originally created by the US and Britain...

".. who have no place on this planet"

Who are you to sentence them like that, eh? What right do you have to say who does and does not deserve to be here

"they're fanatics with a distorted view of the world"

Um... To my mind, that view fits America better than any other country. America who owns the world, and whose way is always best.

"Who are you to sentence them like that, eh? What right do you have to say who does and does not deserve to be here"........

sorry but i'm entitled to my opinion like your entitled to yours..., and yeh it's a harsh statement, but i just think that any group of people who's sole aim is to kill innocent civilians, shouldn't really be defended like you seem to, put simply they're scum we're better off without......yes america is far from blameless, but you seem to come out with all this anti american trash in every one of your postings.....the fact is the whole September 11th thing was started by a bitter failed Saudi warlord along with some religious fanatics, and had sweet FA to do with american foreign policy....

"any group of people who's sole aim is to kill innocent civilians"

I can't believe that anybody, no matter how stupid, would take in and then mouth rote the words of Dubya Bush. It might surprise you to learn that no terrorist organisation has the sole aim of killing innocent civilians. They all have extreme political goals and viewpoints to such an extent that they believe they are entirely justified in killing innocents to achieve their aims. But please, their ultimate goal is not to kill innocent civilians - that's just the unfortunate byproduct that makes them unacceptable. By detracting from the genuine issues and problems that surround and create these terrorist activities, Bush hopes to wash his hands of any responsibility.

That's bull, i listen to Bush and laugh it's nothing to do with what he says....i'm talking solely about UBL and the WTC attacks...the aim was to kill innocent civilians...there was no political goal, apart from the destruction of the western world, which equates to killing innocent civilians, UBL and Al'Qaieda are total nuts..they're not interested in politics at all, only destruction...they have no justification for what they've done, i don't know how u can dispute that?

This is just more moronic bullshit from an uninformed American tit. If you think Al'Qaieda have no political agenda, then you're even more stupid than you'd previously suggested....

That's just the argument of someone who doesn't have one, you have to turn to insults...a) i'm not american b) i'm not stupid especially compared to someone like you, and c) i'm only giving my opinion, if i'm wrong then so be it, i'd prefer to be corrected than insulted...i'm not a historian and don't profess to be an all-knowing political guru like yourself, i'd just like to know why my views are so uninformed

That's just the argument of someone who doesn't have one

I have no arguments to throw at somebody who has no knowledge of the facts, because I don't want to waste my time. Go away, read up on Al Q'aieda, then come back.

As for being stupid compared to me, go figure - you're trying to start an argument based on a topic you know nothing about. That's certainly not smart.....

Go read something.

How can u say its stupid starting a debate on such a thing, otherwise how else can i learn more? That's what it's all about for me, it's not whos right and wrong, i'd just like to understand more, and putting forward ideas is a great way of finding out what's right and wrong. In saying that you seem too up yourself to explain anything rather than just sneering at people who are less informed than you....hardly a great way of conveying your message, which was presumably the point of your original posting and my original reply. Going back to your previous thing...please explain what way Al'Qaeda is a political organisation..i don't doubt ur wrong, i'd just like to know.

You can learn more by reading a paper, watching the news, generally catch up on current events. The way to learn isn't to decide something for yourself, then argue that point of view until somebody proves you wrong.

For starters, Al'Qaieda had political interests in Afghanistan if nothing else - as the US government told everybody (and if we believe that...), they were linked so closely to the Taliban leadership that it was (conveniently) impossible (for the US government) to tell them apart (so both had to be destroyed).

Furthermore, their opposition to the west could be said to be political. It's not an irrational hatred of anybody who lives on the wrong side of a given line or anything - it's to do with the political, cultural and religious aspects of western life. So even if they do want to kill every American on the planet, a large part of that is motivated by politics.

And, in the case of the World Trade Centre attacks, it was reasonably political. They weren't trying to kill civilians indiscriminately by crashing into any buildings they could find - their attack on the World Trade Centre and Pentagon were deliberate assaults on what those things stands for, and what they represent. That, to me, is politically motivated.

Don't think that because something is the result of blind hatred that there aren't political reasons behind it too.

Ok, i'm too tired to write anything much..just two little things...i think you're giving Al'Qaieda too much credit for being politically motivated...the training camps in Singapore and the far east, and Somalia are nothing to do with the Taliban, they're just terrorist training can go on about what they did was politically motivated..but that's just a weak justification for their destruction...

Oh and i like your use of sarcasm...

"...their opposition to the west could be said to be political. It's not an irrational hatred of anybody...or anything - it's to do with the political...aspects of western life. So even if they do want to kill every American on the planet.... that is motivated by politics.

So's not irrationational to want to kill every american citizen then??

It was sarcasm, right?

You'd think it'd be irrational, but some mornings, I can't help but want to kill every last one of 'em (plus the British, the French, and more or less every sodding human being on this planet)

I said it's not irrational. It's not - the American way of life threatens them, and the way for them to combat that is to kill all Americans. It's not smart, it's not logical, but it's not entirely irrational.

"I can't help but want to kill every last one of 'em (plus the British, the French, and more or less every sodding human being on this planet)"

I take it your gf, friends and family know how much you value their lives ? :o)

Well, my girlfriend can be spared. But my family use up all the hot water in the mornings, so they must perish. And my friends don't buy me nearly enough drinks. All will pay ;o)

Ok, well on that happy note i hereby declare this thread closed...(not that i'm petty and like to have the last word or anything)

"..anti american trash in every one of your postings.."

Um.... right.... I'm anti the whole Western World, they all suck. And it's not difficult to prove either.

And it had everything to do with US foreign policy - he did it because of the way the US had used Saudi Arabia to launch its attack on Iraq. That's foreign policy.

I wonder if you are gonna sing the same tune about terrorism when your friend or a relative gets blown up to pieces in your own courntry by some suicede bumber, who had to do it, because like, he doesn't have tanks or weapons, and that's his only way, blah, blah, blah. You will still be as liberal? You will still give the word "terrorism" to describe such an act the benefit of a doubt? Common, terrorism is terrorism. And what Israel does is not terrorism. They only shoot so called innocent people when those people throw granades and stones and soldiers. Because guess what my friend? Soldiers are people too! And stones hurt, stones can kill someone. It just goes to show that Israel cares about every person, every soldier. Not like those Palestinians, who don't care about their own people, as they have shown to the world, by sending their young to the suicide missions.

Are you being sarcastic? It's hard to tell, because if the above is serious, it's total bullshit.......

I was being both serious and sarcastic. And what I wrote is not bullshit. Yes, unfortuantely, with the latest actions happening in the last few weeks innocent Palestinians have been killed. But before that, when there wasn't the aggressive offensive that's what was happening: Palestinians would throw stones at soldiers. Soldiers would have to shoot at them, and some of them would get killed. And then there would be a suicide bomber killing innocent Israelis, saying that it was in retaliation for the death of innocent Palestinians. But in my view what's so innocent about people who throw stones at other people? And common, how exactly is my statement bullshit? And you know what I find funny? The well to do Palestinians who live in Israel don't go out creating suicide attacks. If it were that bad, everybody would be against Israel. But as it is, the only Palestinians who take action against Israel are the ones who have nothing better to do, and who have been brain washed.

And you know what I find to be the greatest difference between those who support Israel and those who don't? Those who support Israel are still able to see the Palestinians point of view. They want to Palestinians to have their state. They want things to be fair. If they don't always succeed, at least they do try to understand the Palestinians, and where they are coming from. You can't deny that. But those who are against Israel fail even to try to see Israel's point of view. And no matter how great of arguments you give them in support of Israel, they will always deny it, and never give up their opinions. But it all woudln't matter if that somehow could bring peace to the region. Unfortunately, it doesn't.

But in my view what's so innocent about people who throw stones at other people?

In my view, that's no justification for killing them. If I were being occupied by a force that's practically committing genocide, I might want to throw stones at them too.

As for you wanting to know which part of what you said was bullshit, how about this:

"And what Israel does is not terrorism"

"They only shoot so called innocent people when those people throw granades and stones and soldiers"

"It just goes to show that Israel cares about every person, every soldier"

None of those is in the slightest bit accurate.

But those who are against Israel fail even to try to see Israel's point of view. And no matter how great of arguments you give them in support of Israel, they will always deny it, and never give up their opinions.

That's an absurd and inaccurate rationalisation, sorry. I don't know a single pro-Palestinian supporter who refuses to see Israel's point of view. However, I can name a good few Israel supporters who seem to think that the Palestinians are savages, and that the whole nation of Islam seems to be a threat to global stability, so....

--But in my view what's so innocent about people who throw stones at other people?

--In my view, that's no justification for killing them. If I were being occupied by a force that's practically committing genocide, I might want to throw stones at them too.

I think you are being cynical again here. I really do want to see you act when someone throws stones at you. Are you gonna be liberal again? You see, soldiers shoot those people who throw stones not to silence their political voices, but in self-defense. I know many Palestinian supporters for some reason refuse to belive that, but stones do kill people, and some Israeli soldiers have been killed and seriously wounded by such stone throwers.

Fuck, I can't wait for those Palestinians to get their own state. I wanna seem them really starve for a change. Right now, the media doesn't like to highlight it, but Israel does really spend a lot of money on those so called refugee camps, etc. It does give them free elictricity, water, etc. And when they are on their own, whom Palestinians gonna blame then? At whom are they gonna throw stones? Oh, and yes, the Israelis, want Palestinians to have their state already. And it would have happened already, if not for the issue of Jerusalem and the return of regugees. But do you think that it's reasonable to allow millions of refugees into the country? I don't. I mean, I am always curious about it. If the other Arab countries think it's so tough for Palestinians, why don't they open their doors to them, and creat refugee programs for them, like the US does for many peoples in this world? I am not saying that that's the altimate solution for the problem. But it would be nice of them to offer, to show they care. Because you know what? Nobody really cares about the Palestinian people. You hate the West, but the Middle East is even worse. They will sell each other just like that for profit. They manipulate the poor Palestinina people instead of really helping them to achive peace. Anyway, I am getting off the subject.

And to the rest of your arguments/rebuttles all I can say is this. As soon as Israel tries to act civil towards Palestinians by starting to pull out of some West Bank cities, Palestian militants kill 13 Israeli soldiers in a most ASSHOLE way. I mean, they even shot the soldiers who came to resque other soldiers. If you say that it was in self defense, if you say that it was somehow justified, then you are as big of an asshole as them, and what's the point of even arguing.

As soon as Israel tries to act civil towards Palestinians by starting to pull out of some West Bank cities, Palestian militants kill 13 Israeli soldiers in a most ASSHOLE way.

Um, they pulled out of other cities to where the fighting took place. And the Israelis weren't exactly innocent in all that - they were fighting too. In a "war on terrorism", they should expect casualties.

And if there's an occupying force in your town, from an enemy nation, who are destroying your civil liberties, attacking them isn't exactly unjustified. There's no justification for killing, on either side, but given the actions of the Israelis lately, the Palestinians have every right to fight back.

In the US, there's this little rule whereby given the right circumstances, you can shoot somebody who comes onto your property and call it self defence if you think they're there to do you harm. So under US law, the Palestinians would be justified. I'm not excusing them, but if the most powerful country in the world is setting the example that it's okay to defend your land.......

ok, even if the Palestinians got a right to throw stones, they can't say that suicide bombings were in retaliation for those who were killed while throwing stones. Besides, the reasons that they throw stones, that the Israelis can't pull out of their territories is because of the continuing violence. It's an ongoing circle. But as soon as people come to at least a seeming way out, as soon as it comes close to a peace deal (don't worry, I am not being naive. A peace "deal", not "peace") there is another suicide attack. I mean, why is that when Israel breaks cease fire it's bad, but when Palestinians do it, it's in self defense? A cease fire is a cease fire. That's exactly what it means. Even if it's in self defense, you just drop the violance.

I guess you are right, (see, I'm able to admit it if that's the case), if there were occupants on my land, I probably would throw stones at them, or at least that would seem like the right thing to do. That is if all I wanted was to throw stones and make their skulls bleed. If I wanted a peace deal, I would have to look at the big picture. I would have to realize that my stone throwing escaltes the violance, and if that's what i want, that's fine, but if I want a peace deal, it's not fine. Of course, you don't want a peace deal with your occupant. You just want them out. Again, as far as the West Bank is concerned, Israel would be out if not for the violance itself. And if Palestians want more than the West bank--well, it's just not gonna happen. Lets' face it, for one reason or another, it's just not. So, why they don't make the most of the situation? So, I answered you what I'd do if there were occupants in my land (by the way, the Jews were the original inhabitants of the land of Israel, so everybody else is an occupant, but that's just a technical point. I myself don't see it as a strong argument, bcs like, the Arabs did live there for a long time since then). But you still didn't tell me what you would do if people were throwing stones at you...

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